Report 1046
Report #1046 Skillset: Skill: Distort/Bixes Org: Illuminati Status: Completed Sept 2015 Furies' Decision: Solution 2 (distort to change summon resistance), with Celina's enemy-territory caveat. Problem: Distort is still too powerful as a mechanic. It provides too much of an advantage in the areas where it is raised when you take the other stackable effects along with it, including mobs/guards, totems/statues, nexus powers, other adventurers, shrines, increased xp loss, etc. It also completely nullifies an excellent use of the gateweave mechanic (and associated skills/arties/conflict mechanics). *Bixes (transplanar devices) are also too powerful a benefit for their cost. They provide instant transport to areas and serve as an easy escape tool. It is both purchasable and easily available by doing org epic quests (which already have guides floating about and other people willing to do most of the steps towards one for you). The ease of accessibility for *bixes means that opportunistic raiders/griefers/etc are able to cause trouble and escape without much effort (especially in the current combat climate where the game has little to no way of quickly summoning/chasing people - it is widely known that if you want to get away, you will). Distort prevents this however. Thus, the problem is this - distort is too powerful and stifles org conflict, bixes are too powerful and offer almost no counterplay aside from having distort, but distort stops bixes (along with everything else). Distort stopping bixes is great, but that's pretty much the only good thing about it. We need to downgrade both. 0 R: 0 Solution #1: Delete/replace the distort power (idea: increased summon resistance for members, reduced summon resistance for enemies) and make *bixes require full vitals before they can be activated. 0 R: 0 Solution #2: Delete/replace the distort power (idea: increased summon resistance for members, reduced summon resistance for enemies) and make *bixes have a natural 3s delay (preventable by hindering/movement/etc) before they can be activated. 0 R: 0 Solution #3: Delete/replace the distort power (idea: increased summon resistance for members, reduced summon resistance for enemies) and make *bixes require full vitals and have a natural 3s delay (preventable by hindering/movement/etc) before they can be activated. Player Comments: ---on 9/11 @ 01:28 writes: This solution elegantly solves 2 problems - distort overly stifling conflict (on both ends) and *bixes making it too easy to escape. It retains the use of *bixes as travel devices, removes the potential punishment for enemied people accidentally wandering into enemy territory, re-introduces strategic use of gates in various conflict events (miner raids?!), gives more of a point to the gatemaster skill/arties, and more. Suggestions welcome ---on 9/11 @ 01:30 writes: Also hey, this conveniently evens one of the biggest disparities in raiding - elemental/cosmic planes being fortresses and ethereal ones being...not. Now everyone can have equal amounts of fun. Yay ---on 9/11 @ 09:49 writes: The problem mentions effects that can be stacked with distort, however the setting of distort -whether on Prime or off-plane- affects which of those effects you'll see. That being said, I don't agree that distort needs to be deleted or changed to summon resistance malus or bonus. It would be better if distort still allowed for all forms of teleportation (including bixes) but just significantly increased the time to complete them. Likewise, I am very hesitant to see bixes receive a delay or require full vitals. I'm sympathetic to the problem of it being difficult to chase certain hit-and-run types, however this solution would also cause an opposite problem - ganks would be buffed significantly and made very difficult to escape from. I think ultimately hit- and-runners might still be able to get away under these changes and people trying to honestly escape a bad situation might be penalized. ---on 9/11 @ 09:52 writes: In regards to elemental planes being fortresses and ethereal plane being...not: Why not just remove the effect of distort on elemental archways altogether? ---on 9/11 @ 15:17 writes: What happens to Night Bonds? Will it be converted to a similar effect, or will Glomdoring become the only org with distort (albeit on a room by room basis)? ---on 9/11 @ 16:26 writes: I support solution 2. I think the premise is a valid one -though I do agree with Rivius that I can't think of things that "stack" with distort. Distort is such a hard counter BY ITSELF, because it is needed to counter bixes, but the availability and use of bixes as an escape is so prevalent and effective that nerfing distort without an accompanying change to bixes will simply remove any application of strategical play. Bixes should not be the absolute escape ability it currently is - things like flight, evade, tumbles, somersaults, and the strategical counters to those should be the interaction between escape and a kill. This change will also open up the path for moderation of currently obnoxious and go-to abilities to counter bix escapes, like the absoluteness of perfectfifth and how that justifies its absolute weakness to gusts (we can nerf the absoluteness of perfectfifth, but make it less susceptible to gust attempts now that bixes can't be used as an immediate get-out-of-jail-free card) or shadowdance bonds and pits. It will also nerf abilities that do full refreshes, like trueheal and suspendedanimation - you can't TH or SA and then immediately bix out even when you're facing a 1v10 anymore if bixes are properly nerfed, and to escape, you need to actually outsmart opponents. These will encourage more strategical and tactical interaction, and healthier mechanics than an arms race where the guild with more anti-bix abilities = the better. Solution 2 fits that the best, I feel - you can still use bixes as an escape, but only if the people you are fighting are not paying attention, or are unaware of the strategical counters (hinders) to bixes. ---on 9/11 @ 22:17 writes: Aether portals are a pretty big gaping hole in distort lockdowns. I always thought of them as the counter for the crazy strong effect. ---on 9/12 @ 01:10 writes: I don't think Night Bonds really has a place in this report. I think it's important to note that one of the distorts (I forget if it's shrine or planar) already delays -bixes by 60 seconds or some such, so it should be easy to add that functionality to the other distort. I think restoring the previous effect where rifts aren't blocked by distort is a good move too. The summon resist/malus idea is a good idea as well ---on 9/13 @ 00:31 writes: I think it would be way messier to add a delay to everything while distort is up compared to just deleting/replacing the power. Distort is used to mainly stop people from cubixing, ergo, we address cubixes. And I've never hidden the belief that I feel that 10v1 ganks should end badly for the 1. Removing the distort effect from archways means removing the distort effect from TRANSVERSE in general. Seems half assed to me and doesn't adequately solve the problem. Bonds has nothing to do with this report - any issues should be addressed in a separate report. I mentioned distort being "stackable" in so much as putting up a bunch of already-powerful effects makes it rough for the average raider -on top- of distort, not really the main point. Nextly, Lerad understands the intent - by finally balancing out distort, we can finally bring more counterplay to the combat meta and potentially even address certain powerful effects made potentially OP by distort. Last - re: aether portals - if anything, this seems like an awkward way to "balance" distort. ---on 9/13 @ 14:13 writes: I don't think it's messy at all, and addresses the problem with favourable compromise. Right now, distort is an absolute block to all summon and teleportation skills. Distort can be nerfed so that teleportations and summons take more time where appropriate, and skills such as rad and empress etc could just be released from distort's effects altogether. In this way, distort is still an actual discretionary power but it gives you far more mobility and the ability to move and escape. Replacing distort with something like a summon resistance/malus is akin to deleting it, since these mean very little in most situations. Distort not affecting transverse adequately solves the 'fortress problem'. The problem was that you couldn't escape an elemental plane because of distort, but now this gives you an avenue (and more, since my proposed solution would allow you to ascend and use another escape method). [] As far as bixes go, group combat in this game has gotten very crazy over the years. The affliction overhaul has stuffed a number of afflictions under very few cures, and the future plan is to eventually shut off even more cures. Curing is going to be harder soon, and locking down is going to be even easier than it is right now. I really can't support delaying bixes broadly. Requiring max vitals might work but even that I'm hesitant of. ---on 9/13 @ 15:44 writes: I guess the question is, how easy do we want it to be to escape? I wouldn't mind it being a little harder to escape a gank, because right now it's incredibly easy to escape. The other question is, what if the -bix delay was part of the distort power in general? Would that be a compromise? ---on 9/16 @ 00:40 writes: I support solution 2 or 3 with the caveat they it only affects enemy territory and bubbles. I don't see any reason for it to impact day to day bixes as you travel astral or some such. I also don't know why bonds would be changed, it is unrelated to the report. ---on 9/16 @ 01:17 writes: I support Solution 2, with the caveat as Celina described and maybe also if your masochism has dropped (i.e., was recently engaged in some fight). I'm not very keen on full vitals. Also, this report isn't clear as to its extent or applicability to shrine distort (separate from the security power). I do think shrine distort should still be available given that war shrines are limited to org territory and the power can be dropped with shrine defiling. ---on 9/16 @ 03:41 writes: I don't think shrine distort should be left as it is if we're going to change the distort discretionary. They should really be the same power. What's the point of this change if you can just throw up shrine distort and initiate the same problem this report is trying to address. Maybe we should just delete the discretionary, and make these changes to shrine distort instead. ---on 9/16 @ 09:08 writes: Solution 2. I wonder though if we can't make something more interesting than summon resist mods. What about something like actually distorting perception of those affected? (i.e. a scaled down version of old-school dementia) ---on 9/16 @ 19:59 writes: If shrine distort is relevant, room distort is relevant. Let's NOT move all organizational distort effects (Whatever they end up being) to shrines, please. The trend of deemphasizing shrines in combat needs to continue. ---on 9/16 @ 23:11 writes: I am talking about -all- forms of distort, both the power and shrine distort. There's not much point to this report if it only affected one and not the other. With that said, I like the masochism caveat. If we were to just make bixing impossible if masochism is down, would that be satisfactory for everyone? Distort is still gonna go/get replaced though. ---on 9/17 @ 00:32 writes: I support deleting/changing distort discretionary and shrine power. I feel Night bonds is sufficiently different in scope to not be changed in this report. I like the idea of making disabling bixes when masochism is dropped. Also, dropping masochism when an org aligned mob is hit (such as Daughters/Ladies, Elemental Lords and Cosmic mobs) could be good too. ---on 9/17 @ 01:22 writes: @Enyalida - War shrines are already limited to org territory, meaning that moving distort to shrine only isn't really changing much. I can get behind the masochism caveat for bixes. ---on 9/17 @ 03:34 writes: Shrine only means that only order members can activate it, and there's a counter given that shrines can be defiled. I was also thinking that one of the more real applications for distort is in villages, where it serves as a needed hindrance for people stealing resources (like furrikin slaves, moors ewes, dwarven miners, etc.). So I'd like to see Prime distort remain as a discretionary, and maybe limit the scope to removing distort off-Prime. ---on 9/17 @ 11:10 writes: That's a good point. I don't think Prime distort is a problem and can stay. ---on 9/17 @ 14:38 writes: Personally I feel it would be beneficial in the long run to standardize distorts - if we're changing non-prime distorts and using it as a justification to nerf bixes as an escape skill (which I definitely support, as per my previous comment), doing the same for prime distorts is logical and also reasonable. Without bixes as an instant escape skill anyway, you won't really need distort in villages to tie down people and prevent them from escaping - if there's no one around to attack (and trigger masochism and therefore prevent the conflict quest from being completed) then having distort continue to exist will only empower stealth users (who can deepmask) to be the only groups who can perform those quests when no one is around. I would think it would be to everyone's advantage to level the playing field and allow non deepmask users to be able to complete village conflict quests when there are no defenders to interfere. I vote for removing prime distort as well, please. ---on 9/17 @ 23:59 writes: I second Lerad's vote, making Prime villages less fortressy will be better ---on 9/18 @ 15:17 writes: Moving it to shrine only will penalize players and orgs for differences in Order RP and shrine use availability. It's functionally the same... assuming that you have as many people who can use shrine powers (which is dependent on administrative fiat) as you have security (which is dependent only on player action). ---on 9/18 @ 23:57 writes: Maybe that's the direction we need to be heading, one of where org territory isn't so easy to lock down and requires actual costs (like having people in the Order who can activate said shrines) along with the ability to remove said powers. That's the question that should be asked, should we be making changes that don't discourage actual raiding, but discourage hit and run raids by delaying bixes etc. ---on 9/19 @ 02:22 writes: I'm fine with making it more difficult to lock down a territory and making it require costs that are relevant to the org whose territory it is, just not with making those costs be "Hope you have active orders that support using war shrines!". That is not a good direction to go, it runs counter to the 'level the field' sentiment represented several times in these comments. ---on 9/20 @ 04:09 writes: I'm not fine with making any territory easy to lock down. We discourage raiding as is, and we know the consequences. At this point in the game, with the population we have, I don't understand why any envoy would support the contiuation of the existing lock down mechanics Type MORE to continue reading. (94% shown)